Friday, June 27, 2008

Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names

We have Calludus to thank for that witty title. Before I deal with the drama, let me just say that you guys are hysterical. Any comment thread that goes from "Mafia God" to anal probing and el chupacabra is fantastic.

Anyway...well, wow! I think you all may have said everything there is to say (in response to Michelle). I am not a big fan of the dead horse, but I do need to say a few things. Get comfy.

Michelle said...The Lord spoke to you, pm!! He spoke to your heart. This need to
pray is good since it proves you have no lost the holy spirit. He will not
forsake you even when you've forsaken him.

I don't feel, nor have I ever felt, like I have been forsaken by a deity. Bad things happen to good people. I understand that you think that statement would give someone hope, but it doesn't help.

Don't fight the feeling to pray. What can it hurt to follow that impulse?
He may not take the pain as we all need pain to be healthy but I know in my
heart that he would relieve suffering.

First off, you're assuming that I had a "feeling to pray". I don't know where you got that from. What I wrote was: "I wish I could pray to stop this pain." Being that I don't believe in God, I can't appeal to said deity for relief. Furthermore, there are times when prayer hurts. Take, for an example, all of the cases where fundamentalists decide to fore go medical treatment in favor of prayer. If your child had meningitis and all you do is pray, then your prayers and faith are harming the child. Additionally, if your God uses pain to make people believe, then your God is unworthy of worship. Sadism is not a quality one should expect from a "benevolent and just God."

This is the blessing we have been praying you would receive. Every night we
gather and ask god to grant your heart the light of his heavenly plan.

Anything for the team, eh? Seriously! You don't get it, do you? These two sentences, more than any others in your post, reflect a twisted logic. God's heavenly plan, which you prayed for, was to create a situation where a person was in excruciating pain? Your God, allegedly, has all the powers of the universe, but he has to use pain to "light the way"?

Your desire to pray came from the heart. Your heart is the only part of your
body who keeps the spirit for times like these.

I didn't have a desire to pray. My heart is an organ that pumps blood throughout my body through a series of well-established muscular contractions. It is not a receptacle for prayer, god, or any other emotion.
You can ask him to love on you. If he uses pain to get you to come back to Him
he will and He has. Glory be to Him.It is now your turn to accept Him.

Again...this is frightening. What's a little blackmail between shepherds and their flock? Do you not realize how horrible that sounds? "Glory be to God for using suffering to draw in recruits." It's coercion of the worst sort. That anyone would teach their children this is sad. It's too much like the person who claims that the abusive husband hits his wife to prove how much he loves her.

That means you never believed in the power of the One and Almighty.

Isn't that convenient?
Catholicism was what wronged you. That is why you are an atheist. It is
why you struggle now. Catholics put up spiritual road blocks but you don't need
an intercessory to ask God to come in and fill your soul. Please do not let this
chance to know our loving Father pass.

As others have said, you really need to do your research before speaking as an authority on other religions. Catholicism didn't "wrong me". It's just no longer for me. I can't agree with the dogma or doctrine. That said, I also don't agree with the new breed of evangelical fundamentalists who proclaim Catholicism as a "dead church". A church is a church is a church. Drawing lines about which beliefs are justifiable within a church is irony at its finest.

I'm going to have to stop here.


Enshoku said...

*evil glance* You posted your comment one minute before I replied to yours on my blog, which makes me wrong when I said I was looking forward to your upcoming post, meanie. I couldn't stop laughing from the "Mafia God to anal probing and el chupacabra" comment. Michelle's posts were overkilled, though I do think some comments were a bit rude(outside of euphemisms of course), but I don't think I could really disagree with much of what was said.

Calladus said...

Thanks Pmomma!

The "Just have Faith" and "no evidence needed" arguments are of course refuted by claiming to have your own invisible friend.

When a Christian asserts that an invisible deity exists, and poo-poos our requirements for evidence - we can respond by saying:

"The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or Invisible Pink Unicorn, or invisible Pixie named 'Alvin' who sits on my shoulder) has told me to tell you that you are very wrong, and has told me to tell you that you are very silly and that your God doesn't really exist."

If Christians want Atheists to take them seriously, then they need serious proof - otherwise it's just "He said / She Said" between our make-believe friends.

Perpetual Beginner said...

Half the reason I read here, Pmomma, is that your commenters are so consistently interesting. Even the trolls - you get the very best grade of trolls. How do you do that?

The other half is, of course, that you rock!

Blue Suede Shoes said...

Oh, my dear. You protest so much. You are being worked on--let Him happen in your life. I continue to pray.

Milo Johnson said...

And Osiris thanks you.

Anonymous said...

Blue Suede Shoes said...
Oh, my dear. You protest so much. You are being worked on--let Him happen in your life. I continue to pray.

I hope this was an attempt at sarcasm.

Here's what I don't get about all of my trolls - why is it that they never leave a link to their blog or their real identities? I apparently have all these people praying for me...but, none of them have the tact to e-mail me personally.

reVAMPed said...

Blue Suede shoes, you do that. Continue wasting time that could be better spent helping humanity here on earth. Because that's what God wants you to do instead.

Take a meal to someone who can't get out. Go read a book to someone at a convalesant home, or hospital. Praying doesn't do anything but waste time.

Like PM said, why would God give pain to some but not others. Some good people I know have pain, and are good Christians, explain that then, okay?

Let me guess, you were raised in religion, it's wired into your brain, and you don't have an original thought of your own, You're just repeating dogma like a robot...

Enshoku said...

Pmomma, why would they e-mail you when your child's e-mail was so readily available, duuuuuuh. I was really disheartened by the fact that melissa's profile was set to private, I wanted to see her personality, but it was unfruitful. The thing is, most of the people who come to your website have came here to specifically proselytize anyone they can using appeals to emotion and ignorance, these people probably don't exclusively target one website or individual(if they do then there are far to many Christians on the internet, I'm talking a 80% make-up) but rather try to convince as many people as they can in the least time possible.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

I was trying to think of the last time I was in sufficiant pain to think about religion.

It was after a bout of alcohol poisoning at about the time of the 17th regurgitation that I thought
"If I was a christian i'd be praying right now - just shut up and hurl".

I figured if I didn't find religion again that night I never would.

But then I haven't had kidney stones.

I tell you what though that tiled floor in the bathroom gets really comfortable when you are pushed to exhustion.

Maggie Rosethorn said...

Pmomma...nice post. I didn't comment on the previous post because everyone else had already said what I would have!

I have faith in some things...the sun will rise tomorrow.

I have hope in some family will arrive home safely from their trip.

And I love that I had a great motorcycle ride today.

Faith, hope and love...what more could an atheist ask for?

Hope you are feeling better. The kidney stones and surgeon stories suck. I know that you will decide what is best for you and the possum family. Hugs!!

Enshoku said...

Maggie, I just gotta say, you don't have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow.

belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

We have no recorded proof of the sun not coming up in the morning(save for high up north and low down south) so so far the chances of the sun coming up are 1:1 or 100%, believing in something that in over 365,250 trials has proved successful is a fairly logical idea. It would be faith if the sun repeatedly was shown to not come up(which I find funny, because that would mean the earth had stopped, and the sun wouldn't be the biggest of our problems...)and you believed for sure it would come up tomorrow. The reason you believe for sure now is because it never has failed to come up, it isn't faith.

Ernst Hot said...

On the other hand we have no evidence that some cosmic event isn't going to completely obliterate the solar system or significant parts of it before tommorow, however unlikely.

I'd say there's an element of faith in the idea that the sun is going to rise tommorow, but that it is on quite a different level than faith in religions.

Btw, inferring from your statistics argument; the older I get, the less likely I am to die? Great! :P

Calladus said...

There is a difference between "Faith" and "Trust". One is based on evidence and past experience - the other needs no evidence.

You trust that the sun will rise tomorrow because in your experience it has risen every single morning in your life.

I think the too words are incorrectly conflated.

Enshoku said...

ernst, it's actually to the contrary. Almost every thing that has ever lived has died, therefore, without outside influences, you too will die. In the example of your death we have other instances to compare it to, and for the sun the only plausible comparison would be other similar stars, giving us a 1/2.922*10^12, or 1/2,922,000,000,000 chance, instead of the 0/365,250 chance of the last thousand years, the 1 implying the stars death. If one really considers that belief unmerited so be it, but taking a 2,921,999,999,999/2,922,000,000,000 chance is no stretch of logic by any means

Ernst Hot said...

Enshuko, I know... I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.

The problem I have with your argument is that in all likelihood the sun, eventually, will 'die' too.

However, the data we have from observing other stars and the current state of our own, gives us evidence that, any outside cosmic events aside, we've still got a good couple of billion years to go.
But leave it be, I'm just nitpicking here ;)

Calladus, I think I somewhat agree with that distinction, although in danish the word for faith, 'tro' can also imply trust, depending on how it's used, so for us the distinction is less clear.