Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Who are these people?

I'm sorry I've been out of touch. This flu has knocked me on my rear end and, in a rare turn of events, has laid P-Daddy down for the count. We haven't had debates about who should have to get up and turn off a light or answer a child since P4 was in his breastfeed-every-two-hours-marathon-of-2004. :)

I know that some of you have been engaging in a dialogue with SavedinChrist (in comments to the last entry). I really appreciate the way you've handled him/her. It's nice to know that other people think P-Daddy and I are parenting well. I've spent the last hour going back-and-forth on responded to SIC.

There's part of me that wants to ignore SIC. It's nothing that hasn't been said before. It's nothing that hasn't been answered before. And, you guys have done a remarkable job of pointing out his/her bullshit.

The other part of me wants to take SIC down. On top of the comments here, SIC sent e-mails. I thought that it was, possibly, John R (again!). But, the IPs on the e-mails don't match exactly. They're close, but... my research shows that they are at least 100 miles away. As I sit here, I realize that I really want to address some of SIC's comments. I hope you'll indulge me while I do so. I'll begin with the comments left in the last blog entry.

savedinchrist said...
Possummomma or what you call yourself. You are
living a lie as all atheists live a lie by denying what they know is true. You
once believed by your own admission. A child like belief that God commands you
to embrace in Him and that is what you've denied

Well, apparently, you seem to have a problem with two things: people change and I believe having a "child-like belief" is more appropriately phrased than you might imagine. I would say it's a slip of the tongue (unintentional, of course). As adults, what do people like you gain by believing in things as a four year old might? At what point are you, as a Christian and human, obligated to grow up. Does the Bible not ALSO say that you are to put away childish things? So...which is it? Let me see if I can put this another way? What other aspects of your life do you approach "like a child"? Probably, not many...except for religion. Why is that? What would happen if you applied that logic to things like deciding on which house to buy or which political candidate you were going to choose? What about medical care? Would you approach that "as a child"? I would be willing to guess that you approach quite a few unproven claims with your adult brain. It's interesting, to me, that you keep pounding this "believe as a child" rhetoric because it would seem, to me, that believing in God, as a child, would mean you have stunted your emotional maturity and logical progression by choice. Is that really something you want to flaunt? I once believed - you are correct! But, I've changed. There's nothing sinister about changing or growing up.

You mention being ill almost every post and yet take no comfort in
prayers that could ask for God to heal you. What do you expect if you sit in a
house all day feeling sorry for yourself?



This is a false statement. I do not mention my illness in every post. I take no comfort in prayer because it hasn't been shown to have any effect what-so-ever on clinical outcomes. And, I don't sit in this house feeling sorry for myself. Quite the contrary, I sit in this house and count the man ways in which I am satisfied and proud of the life I have.

I don't believe most of what you write...

Ok. That's entirely up to you. No one is required to believe, or agree with, me. But, your rant on lupus is uninformed. I would direct you to the Lupus Foundation of America, in an effort to educate you.


Plenty of people have; met me, spoke to me on the phone, met my family, been in my life for a very long time. ReVamped shared our history with you. I've had phone conversations with MANY posters on this blog. Anyone with half-a-brain, and a bit of internet ability, could easily verify my existence. What I want to ask is: How do we know YOU are for real? Have you given us any evidence to take your story seriously?

As to the "perfect family"...we are not perfect. We are close because we are happy sharing time with each other. The kids are happy! And, when children are happy,...when they know that your love is unconditional and that they are valued beyond measure in the family, then they develop a confidence and security that shows in their very essence and persona. You say that the pictures are "too goo to be true". That makes me feel very sad for you. But, I also know that I would never post pictures of them acting badly because that would violate their right to grow and mature without a permanent, internet record of their "challenges". Would you want someone taking a picture of you every time you acted like an ass? And, most of all, when they are acting poorly, I don't take pictures because they need someone to help them learn what they could've done better and focus on the issue at hand...not a mother with a camera in their face. Contrary to what you may believe, this blog will never be as important to me as retaining the dignity of a child having a bad day. People who focus on the negative actions of a child, and lace their expectations of childhood with "sin" and power trips are the very people who end up perpetuating a cycle of emotional abuse that emotionally handicaps subsequent generations.

I am not my children's' "best friend". I am their mother. As their mother, it is my privilege and duty to help them accentuate their strengths and manage their weaknesses. Having routine, deep discussions with your children, as a mother, goes beyond "best friend". It's a process of building an open relationship of trust and love. I don't need to be their best friend because I'm already their confidante. The fun we have is a bonus, and a testament, to what my husband and I have tried to do. I'm very sorry your jaded nature has rendered you incapable of understanding this delicate and rewarding relationship.

Ok. I need to check out the book group and then head to bed. Good night!

36 comments:

ozatheist said...

and you wouldn't want to grow out of the childish belief in Santa, or the tooth fairy, or...

The idiot!

Paul said...

[silentsanta, NZ]

ozatheist: "Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

I read the blog. You won't believe in Jesus and God even though there's a Bible that has been thousands of years old but you believe in Possummomma with a one years internet blog? How can I take you seriously.

SavedInChrist. Perhaps you are unaware: Just because something is old, doesn't make it true. Consider the worship of Zeus, Mars, Ares, Jupiter, and Aphrodite, Ra, Osiris, etc all of which pre-date Christianity, by many thousands of years in some cases. They're older, so they're more correct, right? it does not follow.

Prayer does work if you saw a study otherwise then you were lead to read it by Satan.

Let me try that! An experiment: I will earnestly pray that you will learn how to spell and use proper grammar, and also display critical thinking skills and the ability to identify logical fallacies!
Lets see how we go...

Mephitis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
maxi said...

I tend to think of pics of the possums on this blog to similar to those found in the family photo album. After all, who loving records their children's bad days on film?

maxi said...

Argh! And obviously I cannot spell or arrange my sentences in a grammatically pleasing way!

Pft.

Psychodiva said...

but Maxi- they are still pleasing to read :) spelling schmelling- the trolls obviously don't need it- so why worry lol

anyway- nice to see you back PMomma- sod the damn troll - same-o same-o if you ask me- I would be very shocked if one of them were to actually ocome up with something- anything! new

Cogito said...

PMomma, I sure hope you feel better soon - you just can't catch a break, can you?

Anyway, FWIW, my four year old has no child-like belief in any gods. And that is despite receiving Christian education at preschool! I haven't indoctrinated her into atheism, just failed to indoctrinate her into any religion. And, surprise surprise, there is plenty in this world to fascinate and delight her.

Tanya said...

Happy to see you back. Our entire family got kicked by the flu. I missed three days of work and had to push off Patrick's b-day party by a week and my husband missed a full week of work!

I'm now home with Patrick because he caught a cold and it's going into pneumonia. Luckily, albuterol seems to be doing the trick. He hates the hospital, so we're being very aggressive at home.

Anyway, I look forward to reading some new posts by you. You're an inspiration to me as a fellow atheist and parent.

PipesUp said...

re: maxi - not that I'm trying to dismantle the argument about great photos of one's kids -PMomma's pics of the possums are wonderful and the kids look bright, healthy and happy - but the discussion reminds me of the first photos sent to me of my niece (I live overseas and this was before email). The very first pic I saw of the baby was of a wailing newborn, toothless mouth open and nose running! My sister wrote "Oh, the joys of motherhood" on the back.

We now return you to your regular commenting...

April said...

Very well-said, PM (of course). I'm so sorry that SIC is stalking you, particularly when you aren't feeling well.

April said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt D. said...

savedinchrist wrote:

"She's fake because it is ALWAYS GOOD STUFF."

So, either she doesn't feel like publicizing the bad times (and who would?) or she's managed to find a genuinely happy family that are willing to let her stalk them, take pictures of them and support her delusion. I know where my money is.

"My children are not all happy because they know God puts challenges in their way to help grow their spirit with challenge."

If you know that your kids aren't happy because they know God puts challenges in their path, then maybe if you'd stop lying to them about this God fella, they'd be happier.

I don't understand, if you're willing to admit that this god stuff makes them unhappy...aren't you simply being evil? Oh, wait...that's right, you actually believe it to. Sorry, I misunderstood. ;)

"I am skepticle of any mom who is a best friend to her children."

Oddly enough, Possummomma and I had a conversation about this last night. We're both in agreement that "best friend" in the simplistic sense, is not a good paradigm for parenting - fortunately, she doesn't fit that mold.

She gives her children love, and they return it. She gives her children respect and, thus, earns respect in return. She doesn't insult their intelligence, she fosters it.

She gives them the freedom to be who they are - without sacrificing one iota of authority. She advises, counsels and nurtures them. She leads them - along with PDaddy, guiding them in the way only the best leaders can... by example, wisdom and respect.

She's not perfect, and she recognizes this - which is the first requirement for moving closer to perfection.

What is it that you do that makes you a better parent?

ascian said...

You're not going to convince him, he's not going to convince you - sure, he's in the wrong by going to your blog and insulting you and the community, but wouldn't it be better to just delete the comments and the emails and ignore him rather than stooping to his level? If he's not getting any attention, he'll go troll some other blog or pray for our destruction or something equally christian, leaving us in peace :)

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

If someone can supply me with a plane ticket and a hammer I am willing to debate SIC in person.

Kori said...

I am a Christian-I am also completely appalled by the whole savedinchrist whatever he/she is dialogue. That person is a HUGE part of why people choose not to believe in God. Becuase all it is, is hatemongering and creating divisiveness and anger. What a freaking asshole. I think that for me, God is there and real and such. But that belief certainly gives me no reason in the world to assume that you would be so much better off if you believed the way I do! Aargh. I might have to blog about this myself, if oyu don't mind! Parenting has noting to do with religous beliefs-I know many, many parenst who have damaged their children due tto relsiogous beliefs, as well as know really awesome parents who DON'T believe. I totally LOVED your line about not being your kids' best friend-that is my theory as well, that I don't do them any good by being a freaking pal or best friend, but I do by being a PARENT. Oh, yeah. I WILL be back to read your stuff! Keep up the good work!

Knobby said...

Kori said: "That person is a HUGE part of why people choose not to believe in God."

Actually, the behavior of those like SIC has very little, if anything, to do with why people do not believe in or have stopped believing in god(s).

And FYI, not believing in gods is no more a "choice" than is choosing to not believe in the tooth fairy.

Kori said...

Actually, knobby, I believe it IS a choice. And the beauty of it is that you don't have to agree with that! Which is also a choice! I think that everythign we do and think and feel is a choice-be it to believe or not to believe.

EntoAggie said...

"That person is a HUGE part of why people choose not to believe in God."

The fact that certain *proponents* of religions can be very nosey, destructive, and irritating has more to do with our *annoyance at religion* rather than our disbelief in dieties. Perhaps that was what you were getting at.

The non-belief in deities goes beyond whether the messenger is particularly irritating or not--if the message is true (ie has evidence for it) then the messenger's attitude is irrelevant (after all, there are certainly many asshole scientists in the world). Our disbelief has to do with the fact that there is no evidence for said dieties, and that they provide no useful or better explanation for our observations of the world.

As for whether particular beliefs are a choice or not...I understand what you're trying to say. Think of it this way. When you a little kid, you believe in Santa (usually). As you get older, more and more evidence begins to accumulate, hinting that perhaps this Santa character isn't actually real, and there's an alternative explanation. You might not know what it (the explanation is) yet, but you know something's fishy. Finally, one night you spot your parents putting presents under the tree.

Now, with the evidence you have, is realizing that the Santa story was just that--a story--a "choice"? I suppose, in a way, you could "choose" to do some mental gymnastics, pretend you hadn't seen the evidence to the contrary, and just continue to believe in him. But on some level, you would know you were lying to yourself.

Atheists (I can't speak for all of them, but I am fairly sure a great number of them) feel this way about dieties. It just gets to a certain point where we have seen enough and know enough that dieties just aren't a good explanation any more. Trying to believe in them again feels forced, and weird--just like trying to force yourself to believe in Santa Claus again, no matter how much you may want to think that someone cool like the Clause man exists. If you want to call it a "choice," you are of course able, but please keep these things in mind.

I hope this illustrates the concept to you a little more clearly--and I hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic! I don't want to scare you away, just try to explain our thought processes a little better.

Kori said...

I know what the thought processes are, though I thank you for the explanation. I still believe it is a choice, though, and I still believe that a lot of people choose not to believe in any kind of diety because of the rabid Christian idiots. You know, like "if THIS is what God is like, then no thanks." No matter what your (the collective your, not you specifically! :) )personal beliefs are, there is evidence to support it. Whether it is about religion or immunizations or whether or not the world is going to end in the next 32 seconds, there is evidence to back up your belief.

EntoAggie said...

"if THIS is what God is like, then no thanks."

Of course I can't speak for your personal experience, if you've encountered people who think like this. To me, this seems like more a reason someone might not choose the *Christian* religion (which some people, I'm not saying you, do equate with atheism). However, God-belief is so entrenched in our culture that people who choose not to be Christians often just go on to choose other religions, ones which jibe better with their personal identity. They keep the god-belief (thus, are not atheists), but just dispose of the Christian rituals and belief structures that offend them.

What I call "genuine" atheism (and this is just my personal distinction), as opposed to "rebellious" atheism (ie "I'll be an atheist! That'll piss off Mom and Dad!") or "mad at god" atheism ("I can't believe God let my little brother die. I'm not going to believe in him anymore. Take that, God!")is generally a conclusion arrived at after much careful consideration and examination of the evidence, not as an emotional reaction to a bad experience with the church (of course many atheists are antagonistic towards the Christian religion. But once again, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the REASON they became atheists in the first place). And, like I said, you get to a certain point where it's not so much a choice as just a logical conclusion.

"No matter what your (the collective your, not you specifically! :) )personal beliefs are, there is evidence to support it."

Well, in a certain manner of speaking, you are right. We all believe in things for reasons. We don't just pick random things out of thin air to argue for (usually). But those reasons do not always constitute "evidence." "Evidence," as I (and rational atheists, and scientists) refer to it, is replicable, able to be verified independently.

For example, many Christians count the warm, fuzzy feelings they get from reading the Bible, or attending church, as "evidence" that their religion is true (or that god is real, etc.). But does it count as real, positive evidence for their cause? Doesn't it ignore the warm, fuzzy feeling that Buddist monks might get through meditation? Or the warm, fuzzy feeling that I get when I listen to a certain piece of music I like? Or the fact that many people *don't* get that warm fuzzy feeling from the bible or church?

Might that warm fuzzy feeling have an alternative explanation? Such as: being part of a community, feeling that there's a parental figure always watching over you, the beauty of the litature or music, etc.? Those things have to be examined, and eliminated, before we consider that the truth of the religion/god belief to be the ONLY explanation.

Most atheists don't discount the vague *possibility* of a diety entirely, they just don't consider it very likely, considering that natural explanations have been found for countless things which used to be ascribed to god/s. So we tend to look for naturalistic explanations. Is god/s a possible explanation? Perhaps. But is not the ONLY possible explanation, nor is it a likely one.

maxi said...

entoaggie:

Applause.

You've said exactly what I wanted to say, only with more clarity and lucidity than I could ever hope to replicate!

I happen to be an atheist as I was never brought up particularly religous. If you discount my sole surviving grandmother, none of my family are.

Non-belief isn't a choice, it is the automatic state of mind. And I find it completely invigorating!

benjdm said...

OT: 'In God We Trust' posters are going up

http://www.bakersfield.com/102/story/405506.html

These posters look relatively acceptable. 100 times better than the original AFA ones that were going to be put up.

FreedomFirst said...

Thanks to Kori for pointing this discussion out. I don't have nearly enough time to read the whole thing, but I'll just address what I feel is obvious.

I'm guessing that this comment by Knobby was the one Kori referred to: "And FYI, not believing in gods is no more a "choice" than is choosing to not believe in the tooth fairy."

I'm not sure I quite follow that comment grammatically; since everyone seems to think it implies that our beliefs are not a choice, I will continue on that presumption.

As a Protestant non-denominational conservative Christian, I must differ. Our beliefs are absolutely a choice, and the Bible itself tells us that. If our beliefs were not a choice, it would be impossible to "accept" Christ's salvation, and the Bible would be incorrect in telling us that we were created with a free will.

I don't have time to rant about this as much as I want to, so I'll just stick with this: It is amazing to me how many so-called "Christians" out there have forgotten (or chosen to ignore) the true calling of Christ. You are so obsessed with proving to others that their path is wrong, rather than following Christ's instructions to show them the right path. Pathetic.

I have to assume that you are a Calvinist, and believe that some souls are born to damnation, and some to redemption; and that you have decided this gives you the right to usurp God's place by determining which category the person you are talking to falls into, then proceeding to treat them accordingly.

That is an evil and un-Christ-like attitude, unfitting for anyone bearing the title of Christian. Shame on you.

Atheist in a mini van. said...

Kori,
No. Just...no. You have every right to believe what you choose to believe. But, not everything is a choice. If you *see* a child sitting on your feet, you do not *choose* to see the child. Your eyes and brain engage in a completely unconscious action of gathering data to, if your brain is working correctly, tell you "this is a child". There's no choice there. Now, after you've registered "that's a child", THEN there is a choice, perhaps, regarding what you will do about/with/for/to that child. Now, walk into the same room...the child is not there. Can you choose to believe he/she is there despite the data your body is gathering? No. The child IS NOT there.

What you feel about the child is irrelevant. The child could be good as gold or a tiny tyrant - but, that doesn't have ANY bearing on whether they child is actually THERE or not. You can't say, "Wow. He's a nice kid. Sure, he's there." Or, "That kids a jerk, so I'm not going to see him if he's sitting in the middle of the room."

Some people may avoid Christianity or Christians or Islam or Muslims or LDS or *insert religion here* because they've had bad experiences, but the key is that they've HAD EXPERIENCES that are verifiable.

You are making a very common mistake, Kori. You're trying to present the atheist as someone whose "mad" at God. This is incorrect. Atheists don't believe in a deity. How can we bad mad at something that doesn't exist? Are you an a-unicornist because you're mad at unicorns? Did someone in your family have a bad experience with unicorns? Did YOU have a bad experience with unicorns? NO! Of course not.

Thanks for reading.

EntoAggie said...

Thank you, maxi. :D

reddhedd said...

Kori, freedomfirst,

With all due respect for your gentle tone and lack of defense for savedinchris, you sound like most other christians I've met.
You hear us tell you you're wrong about us, about the reason for our lack of disbelief...and you essentially say (I'm paraphrasing here) " I don't care what you say, I'll believe whatever I want about people like you. "

Your preconceived notions are stopping you from both hearing us, and understanding us. I assure you I know more atheists than you do, and your characterization is way off base.

Perhaps you follow Mark Twain's homily..."Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."?
I can't do that. I just can't have faith in something I know isn't true.
The gods of the bible, koran, quran, vedas, etc don't exist. It's a simple belief; no ulterior motives or dark secret past. No lack of desire, no unbridled yearning to hurt others or ''do whatever I want'', no mean people, no dying family members or pets.

As far as I can tell, as far as anyone can show me, the gods and goddesses aren't there. I simply haven't EVER seen convincing proof of any deity whatsoever.
I'm sure you've found proof that is acceptable to you, but I haven't. Nothing sinister need be implied.

Xena said...

Kori ~
I tried very, very hard for a very long time to believe. I really did. I took college courses on different religions. I read the best and worst propoganda out there for any given flavor of Christianity, Buddism, and Islam. I actually just finally donated a stack of around 20 books all related to this. I wasn't being pushed away by fanatics. I honestly wanted to believe, and I was talking with people and reading authors that I feel where very reasonable in their beliefs. In the end, I could not make myself believe.

I struggled for a long time at the thought of being an atheist. It scared me as I had many wrong ideas about what it meant. In the end, I realized that it really meant nothing other than I don't believe in a god. It was merely a label as obvious as labeling me female. It was just the way things were.

I no longer wish I could believe. I no longer question what will happen in the afterlife because god knows my heart and knows I'm just going through the motions out of fear. I'm much happier because I accept who I am rather than fear it.

As an added bonus, I find the literature that I now allow myself to read much more rewarding. ;)

EntoAggie said...

reddhedd, thank you that was very eloquent. I wish more of that had gotten across in my posts.

There is always this weird sort of opinion that seems to crop up in theists (not just Christians, but especially them), that THEY know why we are atheists, and when we try to tell them otherwise, we are just wrong or deluding ourselves.

I read a blog somewhere (grr! I wish I could find it now!) which went something like, when telling people that he's a Christian-turned-atheist (paraphrased, obviously): "They told me I had simply had the wrong God, the wrong Jesus, the wrong church, the wrong Bible. In fact, I had everything so wrong, it was a wonder I'd been a Christian at all in the first place!"

It's just such a message--that we simply haven't found the "right" way to know God, and once we do we will effortlessly fall into Christianity--which implies that they know what's best, and that we are just stubborn people who have chosen to refuse to open ourselves up. When, really, we HAVE opened ourselves up...we just haven't been impressed.

Knobby said...

To Freedomfirst:

Can you choose to believe in the tooth fairy? No, you cannot. In that same manner, some people cannot choose to believe in gods.

You are right in that my first attempt to say so was poorly expressed.

FreedomFirst said...

Reddhedd - I didn't have time to read everything, and I didn't really want to get involved in the discussion itself, so that's why I didn't address the issue of logic vs. beliefs. I can accept that a non-believer might feel they have no choice. I was reading the comment in the opposite context, of someone saying that believing was not a choice. So I apologize for the misunderstanding.
If anyone wants to see my reasons for choosing to believe, I will post a blog on my site here at some point today. It would take up too much space here on Possummomma's site, and that wouldn't be fair to everyone else.

Kori said...

I am so sorry if I have come across as saying or sounding like I think "you" are wrong or bad; never was my intention, as I tried to make clear. Frankly, I don't care what "you" believe, as long as it doesn't involve things that hurt other people. I have no preconceived notions-I know and am friends with a lot of athiests and agnostics and people who just really don't care one way or another. I don't believe that any one of us is more "right," we are just different. I will be the first person to stand up and say "My belief in a Higher Power is illogical; there is no reasonable explanation for the way I feel/think/believe." Regardless of knowing that, I still choose to believe, and have found my own assurances that the things I choose to believe are right for me. I have four kids; yes, we do pray every night, we do go to several different churches fairly regularly, but one of the four does not believe there is a God. He goes to church for the same reasons possummomma spoke-the feeling of community, the activities provided for the youth, the opportunity to grow not by believing in God but by being around other people who have so much to offer him besides some sort of salvation that he can't ascribe to. Does this make him WRONG? No way in hell-because my job as a parent, so to speak, is to provide him and all of the others with the freedom to make decisions based on what they believe to be best for them. Just because I believe a certain thing does not mean my kids will or should, and I would be doing them a grave disservice to assume that my way is the only way. I believe with my whole heart that ALL of us are trying to make sense of this world and our place in it-which doesn't (or shouldn't)have anything to do with what we believe in. I may very well wake up dead tomorrow(which is physically impossible, now that I think about it) and find out I was wrong; I don't have the answer to that. Maybe I will just be dead and rotting in the ground, I have no idea. But for me-and only for me-it would be really difficult for me to get up in the morning if I didn't have something to believe in. Does that mean your life has less purpose and meaning than mine? A resounding NO to that one. I think it amazing and incredible that we-this group of people in particular, minus savedinchrsit who frankly pisses me off-can sit here and talk about our differences and our beliefs in such a gentle way. I do not feel attacked, but instead relish the opportunity to talk with a group of intelligent, thoughtful people who happen to think differently. By the same token, I am not attacking anyone here for their beliefs.

reddhedd said...

Kori,

We must be using words differently. To me, choice means that there are 2 or more possibilities between which I make a decision as to preference.

In my view, there is no god. So, there is no choice to be made. No deciding between belief or non-belief.

It's exactly the same as flying without wings. I cannot do it. I's not a choice I make; to fly or not to fly. My preference, my desire to fly, (or to believe) doesn't make the action suddenly possible.

So, when you say that your faith is illogical and you have no reason to believe, but you do so anyway...this makes absolutely no sense to me.

You MUST have a reason why you give the existence of a deity more weight as a choice than the non-existence of said deity. Perhaps it is as you say, .."it would be really difficult for me to get up in the morning if I didn't have something to believe in."

For me, to put faith into something that is make-believe (like my ability to fly) is an exercise in futility. I can pretend to fly, go through the motions, hop around on the couches with a cape on making whooshing noises, but, unless I'm on some sort of hallucinogenic, I cannot, deep down in my core, believe that I can, or will, fly.

I'm glad to hear that you consider yourself open-minded and are capable of conversing in a gentle manner about these things. I'm also happy I didn't offend you. You didn't offend me, although this comment came close:
" I think it amazing and incredible that we-this group of people in particular, minus savedinchrsit who frankly pisses me off-can sit here and talk about our differences and our beliefs in such a gentle way."

Why "this group in particular"?

reddhedd said...

Entoaggie,

TYVM. You are very kind.

redd

Kori said...

Redd-
LOL, I meant as in this specific group of people as opposed to the "collective" you, when I wrote that. I have had expereinces where we (the collective) just can't or won't even TALK about stuff like this for fear of causing a riot, and it is nice that this group of people specifically is not like that. I am actually going to bow out now, though, because it feels susicously like you are telling me I am wrong for choosing(yep, still believe it is a choice FOR ME) what I choose to believe. No, I don't HAVE to have a reason for feeling the way I do, and it doesn't have to make sense to you as long as it makes sense to ME. I came here because I am interested, and I find it fascinating that such diversity exists. I did not come here to tell anyone that what they believe is wrong, because it ISN'T wrong; it just isn't what I believe. You are arguing semantics by splitting hairs about the whole "choice" issue-and like I have said, there isn't any rational explanation for my beliefs, but that doesn't make them any less real or valuable than your rational ones for NOT believing.

redd said...

Kori,

Absolutely, you may believe whatever you wish, and if it brings you comfort, or adds value to your life, who am I to judge?

I don't feel that agreeing on a definition or usage of a word is just playing semantical games; to me, it seems key in creating a bridge upon which to meet with understanding. If we aren't using the same word to mean the same thing, how on earth will we ever really know what the other is talking about?

I wasn't trying to make you feel as if your belief was wrong; I was trying to explain, poorly perhaps, why the words you use to describe your belief don't make sense to me.
Much in the way I imagine trying to describe color to a blind person. He/she simply has no frame of reference on which to hang the description, and so it cannot really make sense to him/her.

I understand your words, can even use them myself, but your belief in a deity gives you a frame of reference I do not possess.

Please know that I did indeed try to gain that particular hook to hang my faith upon...I simply never got it, not through earnest prayer, study, fasting or anything else.

And I appreciate your taking the time to explain the "this group" comment. It's clearer now, thank you.

redd

Anthony said...

It's a childlike belief, because you HAVE to be a child to believe it.