Monday, October 29, 2007

John

So, as some of you may have noticed, John has been quite a prolific writer in the Crazy, Dueling Kids thread. I've noticed, however, that he has a tendency to avoid questions. Now, I'm not sure if that's because we've asked so many of him or if he's just blatantly ignoring the harder questions. But, I thought I'd make a post listing the questions he's ignored. I know some of you won't agree with me making this post "all about him", but I really want to get him penned down and accountable for some of his comments.

1. Maggie asks: How can you take the innocent pictures of children playing and say they are trying to hurt each other? I would add an addendum asking why he seems to get so bent by the pictures in the first place. Every post that he's chosen to get huffy in has been a picture post.

2. Maggie asks: Do you REALLY think any woman has a hysterectomy just because she doesn't want more children?

3. Possummomma asks: Why don't you show us some pictures of your family, John? Put up or shut up! This question is very important to me, as it's been considered that John is a troll. Pictures would go a long way in showing us that he actually has a family and that they live all of the ridiculous mandates that John claims he has taken from the Bible.

4. Possummomma asks: And, if you truly consider the Bible to be your instruction manual, then I'm surprised your kids are still alive. How did they avoid all of the stoning and sacrifices?

5. Possummomma asks: How do you live life with such paralyzing fear?

6. Maggie asks: Do you love your wife enough to refuse to have more children if you were told a pregnancy would kill her? Or is she just a uterus, you and the living children can easily replace a uterus, you know.

7. Saurian asks him about his motivation for posting here...and John didn't really elaborate on this question: How do you intend to accomplish that goal? Your tactics have been completely unsuccessful so far, so why haven't you tried something else? Have you considered another strategy? If yes, why aren't you using it? If no, why not?

8. Saurian asks: Why believe any of that (John's belief that the role of women can be best found in the Bible)? Because you say so? Because the book you happen to follow says so? Why?

9. Paul asks: Do you imagine that an Indian child, choosing to be obedient to instructions from the Hindu temple instead of a christian church is displaying virtuous obedience?

10. Paul asks: Aside from the Bible, can you think of any other evidence for the existence of your God? (John did attempt to answer this, but he tore off into personal experience. I would like him to give an answer focused on the word "evidence".)

11. Possummomma asks: God asks some pretty terrible things of parents - why are you only obeying part of his Parenting 101 class?

12. Possummomma asks: So, a PhD in Religious Studies would be from Satan? (John comments that higher education is a sin.)

13. Possummomma asks: So,...women wanting to lead, or share leadership, is akin to anarchy?

14. Saurian200 asks: what's God's plan for this discussion then?

15. Trust n Truth asks: What if I could show you how much Christianity hurt me and how much better, more loving, and more positive I became once I left it?

So, John. Fifteen questions. Fifteen avoided questions that we would all like to know the answers to. If you can't answer these, then I'm going to suggest that you retreat into your family and your faith and not come back until you can answer these questions. They're not difficult. But, if you refuse to answer them, I'm going to consider you a troll and start removing your comments from posts as you're being a big pain in the ass. I'm more than willing to listen to what you have to say, as are most people here, but you've got to bring a bit more to the table. Simply saying "It is so because my Bible says it is so." is not enough evidence.

28 comments:

no one of consequence said...

I'm not jon but i do want to say something. i have been reading this blog for a few months. i was baptized two years ago in the catholic church. i wouldn't say i am an atheist but i am starting to question a lot of what i have been through in two years. i hope possummomma will forgive me but I peeked at the pictures on her picasa web page. let me tell you what i see jon.
i see happy children.
i see a multigenerational family that gets together frequently.
i see a family that does things together in a world where people don't seem to do that much.
i see a house with books in corners. these are literate children with parents who care about their education. i see children playing outside being active and acting their age. what a refreshing portrait of children. i see a grandpa helping a little girl ride her first bike and a sister taking her sister on an elephant ride. i see kids dressed like children should be dressed. i see a house with swing sets, toys, kid friendly furniture, and just the right amount of ruggedness to raise four active kids. i see well behaved preschoolers at a cafe. i see kids cuddling with parents, family, and siblings. i see love. i see security. i feel warmth. we should all be so lucky to have that. open your eyes jon.
i hope pm doesn't mind cause i think people need to view this album and tell me what jon is seeing.
http://picasaweb.google.com/bedellcl1975

Poodles said...

2. Maggie asks: Do you REALLY think any woman has a hysterectomy just because she doesn't want more children?

Part of the reason I had my hysterectomy was so that I wouldn't have children AT ALL EVER!

I had been on birth control for almost 20 years and started taking a medication that would lessen the effectiveness of the birth control, but I needed the BC to control horrible periods and mostly so I didn't get pregnant, best option, hysterectomy. Best. Thing. Ever.

So wrap your bitty little brain around that John!

Maggie Rosethorn said...

Poodles...I do adore you, but let me point out (so John can't be a jerk) that you had LOGICAL, MEDICAL reasons for your hyst, not simply a desire to not have children. While that was a great fringe benefit for you(also, yay,no more BCPs or periods), I sincerely doubt your doctors would have done it if you didn't have the other medical problems that you do. For you, the hyst was the best choice.

Lexa said...

Hysterectomies are a bit far to go for purely BC reasons, because removing organs is always pretty drastic, but there are plenty of women who get tubals or Essure because they don't ever want to have children. I see modern medicine as a blessing that I'm quite willing to accept!

AlisonM said...

On the flip side, I'd love to know how john feels about couples to whom "god" has elected to not give children using fertility treatments to conceive? How about the ones who carry dangerous multiple pregnancies thusly conceived then claiming it's "god's will" that they not abort any (that they have multiple babies with problems rather than fewer, healthy babies.)

Poodles said...

Thanks for the compliment Maggie.

Actually though the conversation with the GYN went something like this..
GYN: "so you want a tubal because the new migraine medicine will diminish the effect of the birth control pills and you don't even want to risk getting pregnant?"

Me: "Yep, but I still need the BC pills for my crappy heavy periods"

GYN: "perhaps the BC pills are contributing to the migraines, and since you don't want children ever perhaps a hysterectomy would take care of all three problems at once."

Me: "sounds good to me."

So, yes there were medical complications from the BC pills that I am sure John will say could have been fixed by getting pregnant, and that may have been true also, but I wasn't going to let that happen. But alas, I didn't have plumbing problems except for crappy heavy painful periods. Of course, I could have just spent my entire adulthood popping out kids like Mrs. Duggar and I wouldn't have had so many painful periods, but then I probably would have slit my wrists by the second kid so, yeah, maybe that would have worked. :)

John is free to be jerk if he wishes (I am sure he will) but if he thinks I give a rat's ass what he thinks, then he is an even bigger fool than for just his god beliefs.

Perpetual Beginner said...

One of the things that gets me about John is the extent to which fear of hell figures in his arguments. Throwing about hell in trying to persuade people about God is pretty much the complete opposite of useful. Worshipping God because you're afraid of hell is about like hugging your children because somebody ordered you to at gunpoint. It may look like something wonderful, but it's been twisted beyond recall.

SWE said...

Ah, John, you scamp! Keeping us all waiting for answers like this.

I'd also like to add that you never answered my question about violence toward your family.

"Exactly, PB. No violence allowed, ever.

I brought that into the mix specifically to see if John thinks it's a good idea. And John, none of that "sure I'd outlaw waterboarding IF it's torture" nonsense. Either you think violence against your family is ok or you don't. Your stated religious beliefs thus far lead me to wonder."

You said you'd never beat your wife for wearing pants because she wouldn't do it anyway. Would you ever, or have you ever used physical violence in your household?

As far as I'm concerned, you've branded yourself a troll here anyway, but physical violence would brand you a dangerous troll too, and I wanna know what we're dealing with here.

Soitgoes said...

Haven't been keeping up on this but, it seems to me john is of the opinion that the orphans depicted should get no help from him because
"why should good christian folk have to take care of the irresponsible actions of others?"

So let's say you and your wife are killed in a car crash through the irresponsible actions of others, you are really saying they (your kids - if they actually exist) should be thrown out with the garbage.
Well done. How christian!

PipeUp said...

Hey PMomma,

I read/lurk at your blog every day, enjoy your family stories and know that you're raising your kids to be smart and independant.

I'm also an 'out' atheist (former Evangelical!) with no time for tiresome xians who think "hellfire" is some sort of a threat to us Unbelievers.

So it surprises me that no one else seems to have the same opinion as me, that John isn't really a troll; he's a tease. He's so full of drivel and coffee-spittingly ridiculous notions that he ~has to~ be made up.

I have a mental image of someone *pretending* to believe the claptrap that John trots out, and giggling to him/herself as she taps away, thinking "Oh gee, this'll get them going!" Truly. Back up a few steps from the assumption that John really believes what he/she writes, and it's just too stupid to take seriously.

Although I confess, it is funny.

Just my thoughts. Keep up the great blog! :)

Terra said...

pipeup,

I've been thinking that for awhile, too. I think some people use the word "troll" to describe what you've described, so I think there's probably others here that have had the same feelings but are using the blanket word "troll" to try to call him out on his BS.

Honestly, at this point, I would much prefer he be a shit-stirrer than what he says he is. If he is truly everything he says he is (father, husband, etc) and he truly believes the things he does (rather than shit-stirring) I feel bad for everyone who has to put up with his BS on any regular basis.

I feel bad for his daughters that they are taught that they should be subservient and "beautiful decorations in the home" rather than what they want to be. I feel bad for his sons in that they are going to expect women to act like that and treat them in accordance with that fucked up view of "a woman's place" and I feel bad for his wife, if she truly exists, as I can't imagine living in such a restrictive and degrading role. (Yes, John, I know, I know, she doesn't see it as restrictive or degrading because it's Gawd's plan and all that. But, most if not all of the women readers here (and probably most of the men, as well) take huge offense at how you've described women.)

John, most of the things you have said about women (and children for that matter) are so vile and disgusting, so nauseating and out of touch that I have a hard time believing that you believe any of what you have espoused.

Atheist in a mini van. said...

I'm so totally bummed that John hasn't answered. I expected to wake up and find that he'd been a busy boy, this morning. :/

And, no one of consequence - THANK YOU!! You are someone of consequence because you made my day. You don't know how nice it feels, when you're a parent, to have someone pay such a wonderful compliment to your family. Thank you.

Milo Johnson said...

Yeah, right, like that kind of hypocritical authoritarian loser is ever going to actually support their babbling with evidence. People like that belittle others because it's the only way they can temporarily evade the realization that they are simpletons who base their understanding of the world on superstition. But, every time they look in the mirror, they realize they are frauds and attack someone else because they can't fix what's broken inside of them.

john said...

1. Maggie asks: How can you take the innocent pictures of children playing and say they are trying to hurt each other?
When you a picture of a girl being held on the ground by a boy with a sword toy or otherwise it's not a gentlemanly thing to see. Part of our commitment as godly men is treating our women as delicate flowers not as roughntumble playmates. Pmoomma has put her pictures out there and I am being honest with my thoughts. I can't agree with No One Of Consequence. I see so many undesirable things in her pictures.

2. Maggie asks: Do you REALLY think any woman has a hysterectomy just because she doesn't want more children?
I know with data that not all women who have hysterectomies need them. That is a fact. Doctors want to do them because they can charge thousands of dollars. It is also a fact that some women choose them to not have more babys. If they would trust in god to heal and provide it would be better for them.

3. Possummomma asks: Why don't you show us some pictures of your family, John?
I do not think that is wise. I am from a political family and media control is very important. I do not need you approval and do not need to plaster my family on the net.

4. Possummomma asks: And, if you truly consider the Bible to be your instruction manual, then I'm surprised your kids are still alive. How did they avoid all of the stoning and sacrifices?

You are being hateful. God expects us to use his gift of wisdom and we don't have to follow the Old Testament because of Jesus Christ and his promise of salvation. The Old Testament was written for a different time.

5. Possummomma asks: How do you live life with such paralyzing fear?

I fear not. You are the one who should be afraid.

6. Maggie asks: Do you love your wife enough to refuse to have more children if you were told a pregnancy would kill her? Or is she just a uterus, you and the living children can easily replace a uterus, you know.
If my wife is meant to die from a gift of pregnancy I will accept Gods plan. I don't accept his word when it's easy. My wife is willing to accept gifts from god no matter what it might cost.

This is worthless why am I answering like a child?

Chris said...

The Old Testament was written for a different time.

Correction John: The bible was written for a different time.

There, I fixed it for you.

I fear not. You are the one who should be afraid.

Oh boy, here come the christian threats again. "Our god is all loving and all forgiving, yet I find some sadistic joy in pointing out over and over that he'll smite your ass for eternity"

This is worthless why am I answering like a child?

When you stop acting like a child, then maybe you can stop answering like one. But for the record, you could have anwered these questions out of common courtesy. They've been asked of you multiple times now, and we're as a group pretty curious how somebody can be so vile and hate filled such as yourself. For me, at least, it's intellectual curiosity.

Terra said...

John says: God expects us to use his gift of wisdom.

Really? You're not doing a very good job of that.

Atheist in a mini van. said...

*sigh* I need to finish some work,...hopefully, I'll have time to counterpoint John before bed.

Paul said...

[Silentsanta, NZ]

John: This is worthless why am I answering like a child?

That thar's an insult to children, John. I suspect, for example, p#1 could teach you a thing or two about answering questions. She has rather a talent for it :)

My impression of you, John, is as follows. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
This insidious notion that unbelievers can lead meaningful, liberated, wonderful lives is unthinkable to you. When pMomma posts pictures and write as though she has a meaningful and fulfilled life, your fragile worldview of unbelievers as a rebellious, miserable bunch is suddenly threatened. As such, everything she does must be a mistake to you. From your outbursts about a simple picture of her children playing, to your insinuation about her children's nanny, you are searching with such contemptable desperation to find fault with her.
If you can just please oh please find some flaw that you can grasp, you can proceed to build yourself a nice, sturdy pedestal from which to condemn her.
Guess what, Genius? I'll bet she's not even perfect*!
The fact is that you come here looking for evidence of an unfulfilled, empty, self-destructive life to validate your bigoted preconceptions about unbelievers. When you can't find any evidence, you embarrass yourself trying to manufacture it by making hilarious claims about a few benign pictures.
What an absurd creature you are, John! To take issue with such a lovely woman based on nothing but photos of her children playing happily and her obvious passion for instilling her children with curiosity and independent thought.


* probably.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Political Family eh? I am guessing with your stunning ability to reason and your eloquent posts that you are related to George Dubya.

Poodles said...

John Said:

You are being hateful. God expects us to use his gift of wisdom and we don't have to follow the Old Testament because of Jesus Christ and his promise of salvation. The Old Testament was written for a different time.

So...God fucked up the first time? And if the OT is no longer relevant why the need for so many jesus freaks to want the 10 commandments plastered everywhere?

trust n truth said...

"I know with data that not all women who have hysterectomies need them. That is a fact. Doctors want to do them because they can charge thousands of dollars. It is also a fact that some women choose them to not have more babys. If they would trust in god to heal and provide it would be better for them."


That is SO NOT TRUE. There are TONS of women who are constantly denied permanent birth control because they "might change their minds" or are told they can't possibly know what they REALLY want. Also hysterectomies are a major surgery, and very few doctors will do such a procedure if it is not absolutely necessary. Tubals are usually the way to go, and those are also hard to obtain by women who are young or have not yet have children. (Fortunately, my husband, who respects me and my desire not to have any more children had a vasectomy instead.)

My mother was in her 40s and a GRANDMOTHER before she could find a doctor to perform a hysterectomy on her, even though every single doctor she spoke to agreed that the procedure would give her a better quality of life and reduce her risk of early death. But obviously, her ability to carry children (that would probably die in the womb, be born with severe defects, or kill her) was far more important than her health and life.

AlisonM said...

Well, john's OK with his wife dying in childbirth, shouldn't everyone be?

Perpetual Beginner said...

Hmm. Oddly enough, my husband is emphatically not okay with my dying in childbirth. I, personally, am less afraid of that possibility than of the very real possibility of going blind and suffering brain damage, though death through childbirth really isn't an attractive option.

As for trusting in God - why should I not use my God-given reasoning skills to avoid putting myself in a situation where God would have to provide a miracle to bail me out? Wouldn't placing myself in such a situation deliberately be testing God? Doesn't scripture warn specifically against testing God in such a manner?

As to the "fragile flower" thing. God created me with the build of a linebacker, considerable musculature, and an iron stomach. Why should I insult his gifts by treating them as non-existant?

Gramomster said...

Trust n truth:

Actually (and NOT to support John at all... don't get me wrong...) in recent years there is mounting evidence that some, SOME OB/GYNs are actually selling, through fear of potential cancer, hysterectomies to women who have no medical need for them. If a woman in her 40's develops a fibroid, she may be told that, while it's not really dangerous at the moment, it has the potential to become cancerous, so let's just take everything out... you don't need it anymore anyway! And then they can toss her on HRT etc etc...
Unpleasant, but true. An author I read (and teach) asks, "I wonder if men would go for it if doctors offered to remove their testicles because they 'might' develop cancer, and they don't really 'need' those anymore anyway!" Heh heh...

trust n truth said...

Gramomster: I can see that. But there is also a difference between a woman in her 40s and no longer able to have children, and a younger woman who may need the surgery, but is denied because she has the potential to give birth. (Why my mother was denied on the grounds that she MIGHT want more kids, I don't know. I blame it on her backwards little town and the backwards little doctors that worked there (all fundy Christians, BTW)).

I know a few women who have to fight tooth and nail to get the health care they need, all because they are young and able to carry children. While there are some (I hope many) doctors out there who put the well-being of their patients before their ability to incubate, there are also many who will not give a woman the help she needs because of the outdated view that a woman's greatest (or only) purpose is to spawn.

Harry Nads said...

"If my wife is meant to die from a gift of pregnancy I will accept Gods plan. I don't accept his word when it's easy. My wife is willing to accept gifts from god no matter what it might cost."

Mark 16:16-20: (my bold)

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

God gives you the gift to resist poison! So if you truly believe, you should go drink some Liquid Plumber or cyanide and see what happens.

Joe said...

I'm not fully up on the Bible, but doesn't Jesus say that the OT is valid? Or am I mistaken? If I'm correct, then stoning and such should be part and parcel to a good christian household.

Perpetual Beginner said...

You're correct, Joe. The gospels show Jesus saying that Old Testament law is still completely valid at least twice. It's not until the Pauline letters that we get into exceptions - mainly, whether converted gentiles should have to hold to Jewish law. The conclusion appears to be that converted gentiles are not obligated to follow Jewish law (i.e. the Old Testament), but that Jews are.

So I guess whether John should be stoning his children or not depends on whether he has any Jewish ancestry in the maternal line.

Being a bibliolatrist must be difficult.